Post by Frederic Bourgault-Christie on Feb 13, 2008 6:56:04 GMT -5
People wonder how in CotG, FB and my other universes I categorize people's power. For me, power all else being equal is as power does. That is, the capacity to accomplish a goal that one is put to (weighed by the usefulness of the goal - being the best at stacking plates does not make one "powerful" because the only time one could stop the war or defeat the villain or destroy the zombies is if a plate stacking competition took place and determined the outcome) for whatever reason determines one's power. To some extent, this does mean that "power" is continuity-weighted. Being a charismatic, rich surgeon grants amazing advantages over being a steroid-addicted bum in almost all situations. That advantage shrinks or is even eclipsed during a zombie invasion. Since I tend to do crossover continuities or continuities that stress a variety of solutions to problems, any number of things can be considered powerful.
Even in terms of combat, it can be hard to determine someone's "power". The penultimate show for comparing power levels, Dragon Ball Z, even had elements of this. Piccolo and Nail in conjunction were far more than their parts: This meant that Piccolo's fusion power with other Nameks was disproportionately useful. Tien's Tri-Beam Cannon had such kinetic force that even when outclassed by an order of magnitude by Cell he could nonetheless buy #16 and #18 substantial time. Janenba and Hildegarn benefitted far more from supernatural abilities and immunities than raw power. And so on. This becomes especially true when one considers that even a foe at Legendary strength can be lethal when wielding the Bane of You Sword, even when the You in question is of Forbidden caliber. (Read: Every Final Fantasy game ever).
There are magicians in some continuities who cannot even hurl a single fireball in battle. Their options in a fight against a superpowered foe are to run at normal speed, fire a gun or duck under a chair. But as ritualists, they can exert force that can crush cosmoses, destroy souls and annihilate all of Dream.
So, to point out an example of what some have argued is a mismatched fight, I will point out the Obi Wan / Grievous battle in Episode III.
Those watching Star Wars Episode II - The Clone Wars may be amazed by Tartovsky's presentation of Grievous as being superhumanly capable. Bounding dozens of feet, instantly slaying multiple enemies, Grievous seems unstoppable. But in the live action Episode III movie, Grievous' abilities seem limited to spinning his arms rapidly. Some have therefore argued that Obi Wan's victory is due to power seep between the cartoon and the movie.
It is important to recognize that one can imagine and create many internally and mutually consistent representations of certain battles without necessarily changing the power level of the combatants, implied or otherwise. One can imagine the battles of Beowulf or Arthur as ones where entire forests are cut in a single blow or as fights between stinky men and overgrown monsters. The story is not so much about that. So, yes, the Grievous in the cartoon seems to have capacities not presented in the movie. But this in lore, in the actual story, is only due to the different presentation. A Genndy Tartovsky's Obi Wan would be acrobatically matching Grievous' moves.
Okay, fair enough, it's not because becoming CGI hurt Grievous. But Obi Wan still didn't win legitimately. Grievous was injured, specifically by Mace Windu.
True enough. But no one in a war or in consecutive fights can truly claim to be fighting at 100% without some degree of injury. Obi Wan himself had to take a marathon ride to the lion's den then battle and sneak through dozens of Grievous' men before he fought Grievous. Being still only a man, Obi Wan's fatigue was far more serious than Grievous', who had mechanical reseves of endurance and strength. It stands to reason that if the fatigue and injury were written out of the equation, Obi Wan would still have won.
Why?
First, there is an element of general direction of the war. Grievous was being sacrificed by Palpatine, his usefulness having been outlived. His forces were being routed and driven back. Meanwhile, as far as Obi Wan knew before the battle, the war was almost won. Grievous was in a losing position, Obi Wan a winning one.
Second, there is an element of information. Obi Wan had detailed information about Grievous, including to some degree how Grievous had defeated several other Jedi. He knew roughly how Grievous fought and his capacities, and knew about Grievous' injury. While Grievous may have known about Obi Wan, Obi Wan was substantially off the radar for those not in the order, the student of a maverick who had despite obvious ability never risen to the Council. He surely did not anticipate Obi Wan in particular attacking him.
Third, Grievous' tendency was to underestimate his Jedi foes. Having defeated so many (his only true match being Dooku), he was not prepared for one who was his match. Meanwhile, Obi Wan had learned the cost of underestimating a foe early against Darth Maul. For Grievous, this was just another Jedi to slay before an expeditious retreat. For Obi Wan, this was avenging fallen comrades.
Fourth, Obi Wan's lightsaber skills have been disparaged quite unfairly by these arguments. Even as an old man, Obi Wan was the equal of his experienced student, Darth Vader. Obi Wan's defeat was voluntary. He trained under Qui Gon, a genius of Ataru, and unlike many in his era (with notable exceptions such as Dooku) did not stay content with his master's art but instead innovated and developed into Soresu. After his defeat of Grievous, Obi Wan goes off to defeat at that time the Sith apprentice and one of the strongest Jedi in the universe, the slayer of Dooku, his own apprentice, Anakin. So defeating Grievous is not entirely out of his league. Obi Wan was such a master of the arts of the lightsaber that his formal training was among the only training young Luke received in lightsaber combat (as his study under Yoda was more about mastery of the Force), who later became known for the beauty and Force unity of his swordplay.
Indeed, Obi Wan was benefitting from a relatively short period in his life of battling genius after genius and being exposed to a wide variety of foes, something that very few Jedis could match. Under Qui Gon, he battled Darth Maul, one of the first Sith that had been seen in generations. Engaging with Juyo at a high level, he emerged victorious. During the Clone Wars, he battled innumerable foes, including the indomitable Dooku, whose mastery of Makashi made him easily one of the best swordsmen in the entire Galaxy. While Obi Wan never properly defeated Dooku, his protege did. And he even benefitted from such a protege. Teaching is itself a learning process, and every new element Anakin learned was a new element that Obi Wan saw in its infancy. One would imagine that lightsaber sparring against Anakin would be defending against raw endless aggression, not bad for defeating Grievous' murderous style.
Meanwhile, while Grievous had been trained by Dooku, in terms of actual combat experience he was benefitting from the atrophy of the Jedi Order due to centuries of domination. Jedi learned many times in their history that to believe they were the only manner of supersoldier or the only masters of melee combat was to seal their fate, a lesson learned too late against Grievous. Grievous' killing techniques focused on cybernetically-enhanced speed and agility that was beyond even many Force adept's precognitive ability combined with deadly, flawless multi-weapon combat and tricks such as fighting with his legs or splitting from two into four arms. An unpredictable, fast and deadly opponent made easy fare of the Jedi at the time who mostly trained in the diplomat style.
And, of course, it's not as if Grievous had been without defeat. Earlier in Episode III, he is defeated in ship combat, and before the events of the movie Mace clearly won enough of a fight to injure Grievous... well, grievously.
Obi Wan had seen an opponent like Grievous before in Darth Maul. Multiple lightsaber blades, acrobatics, rapid attacks, and so on did not surprise or faze him. Indeed, his training in Soresu was almost always a training against the phantom of Darth Maul in his mind. One can imagine how many thousands of times he replayed the death of his mentor. Soresu's defensive style was perfect against Grievous, who had very little new and innovative skills after he had exhausted his typical bag of tricks.
Further, Obi Wan's actual method of victory was not with the lightsaber but with the blaster. It was far from a cheap shot: It took advantage of Grievous' own positioning, mindset, vulnerabilities, weak points and tactics.
Even if one finds all of the above not quite compelling, the final and most important argument is the "zone". All athletes and competitive persons have a "zone". It is a place where everything crystallizes, where all the previous practice and engagements make sense and one operates simply off of pure intuition. In those brief moments, athletes can defeat opponents far above their normal skill level.
I believe Obi Wan had such a moment against Grievous. Despite being somewhat outclassed, straining the limits of his skills, he did not give up and held on, battling and holding his own until Grievous made a mistake.
So, when considering how battles should go, what power level your character is at and what he can do vis-a-vis others, remember all of these things. It is almost never about raw power but rather the application of one's existing toolkit intelligently.
Even in terms of combat, it can be hard to determine someone's "power". The penultimate show for comparing power levels, Dragon Ball Z, even had elements of this. Piccolo and Nail in conjunction were far more than their parts: This meant that Piccolo's fusion power with other Nameks was disproportionately useful. Tien's Tri-Beam Cannon had such kinetic force that even when outclassed by an order of magnitude by Cell he could nonetheless buy #16 and #18 substantial time. Janenba and Hildegarn benefitted far more from supernatural abilities and immunities than raw power. And so on. This becomes especially true when one considers that even a foe at Legendary strength can be lethal when wielding the Bane of You Sword, even when the You in question is of Forbidden caliber. (Read: Every Final Fantasy game ever).
There are magicians in some continuities who cannot even hurl a single fireball in battle. Their options in a fight against a superpowered foe are to run at normal speed, fire a gun or duck under a chair. But as ritualists, they can exert force that can crush cosmoses, destroy souls and annihilate all of Dream.
So, to point out an example of what some have argued is a mismatched fight, I will point out the Obi Wan / Grievous battle in Episode III.
Those watching Star Wars Episode II - The Clone Wars may be amazed by Tartovsky's presentation of Grievous as being superhumanly capable. Bounding dozens of feet, instantly slaying multiple enemies, Grievous seems unstoppable. But in the live action Episode III movie, Grievous' abilities seem limited to spinning his arms rapidly. Some have therefore argued that Obi Wan's victory is due to power seep between the cartoon and the movie.
It is important to recognize that one can imagine and create many internally and mutually consistent representations of certain battles without necessarily changing the power level of the combatants, implied or otherwise. One can imagine the battles of Beowulf or Arthur as ones where entire forests are cut in a single blow or as fights between stinky men and overgrown monsters. The story is not so much about that. So, yes, the Grievous in the cartoon seems to have capacities not presented in the movie. But this in lore, in the actual story, is only due to the different presentation. A Genndy Tartovsky's Obi Wan would be acrobatically matching Grievous' moves.
Okay, fair enough, it's not because becoming CGI hurt Grievous. But Obi Wan still didn't win legitimately. Grievous was injured, specifically by Mace Windu.
True enough. But no one in a war or in consecutive fights can truly claim to be fighting at 100% without some degree of injury. Obi Wan himself had to take a marathon ride to the lion's den then battle and sneak through dozens of Grievous' men before he fought Grievous. Being still only a man, Obi Wan's fatigue was far more serious than Grievous', who had mechanical reseves of endurance and strength. It stands to reason that if the fatigue and injury were written out of the equation, Obi Wan would still have won.
Why?
First, there is an element of general direction of the war. Grievous was being sacrificed by Palpatine, his usefulness having been outlived. His forces were being routed and driven back. Meanwhile, as far as Obi Wan knew before the battle, the war was almost won. Grievous was in a losing position, Obi Wan a winning one.
Second, there is an element of information. Obi Wan had detailed information about Grievous, including to some degree how Grievous had defeated several other Jedi. He knew roughly how Grievous fought and his capacities, and knew about Grievous' injury. While Grievous may have known about Obi Wan, Obi Wan was substantially off the radar for those not in the order, the student of a maverick who had despite obvious ability never risen to the Council. He surely did not anticipate Obi Wan in particular attacking him.
Third, Grievous' tendency was to underestimate his Jedi foes. Having defeated so many (his only true match being Dooku), he was not prepared for one who was his match. Meanwhile, Obi Wan had learned the cost of underestimating a foe early against Darth Maul. For Grievous, this was just another Jedi to slay before an expeditious retreat. For Obi Wan, this was avenging fallen comrades.
Fourth, Obi Wan's lightsaber skills have been disparaged quite unfairly by these arguments. Even as an old man, Obi Wan was the equal of his experienced student, Darth Vader. Obi Wan's defeat was voluntary. He trained under Qui Gon, a genius of Ataru, and unlike many in his era (with notable exceptions such as Dooku) did not stay content with his master's art but instead innovated and developed into Soresu. After his defeat of Grievous, Obi Wan goes off to defeat at that time the Sith apprentice and one of the strongest Jedi in the universe, the slayer of Dooku, his own apprentice, Anakin. So defeating Grievous is not entirely out of his league. Obi Wan was such a master of the arts of the lightsaber that his formal training was among the only training young Luke received in lightsaber combat (as his study under Yoda was more about mastery of the Force), who later became known for the beauty and Force unity of his swordplay.
Indeed, Obi Wan was benefitting from a relatively short period in his life of battling genius after genius and being exposed to a wide variety of foes, something that very few Jedis could match. Under Qui Gon, he battled Darth Maul, one of the first Sith that had been seen in generations. Engaging with Juyo at a high level, he emerged victorious. During the Clone Wars, he battled innumerable foes, including the indomitable Dooku, whose mastery of Makashi made him easily one of the best swordsmen in the entire Galaxy. While Obi Wan never properly defeated Dooku, his protege did. And he even benefitted from such a protege. Teaching is itself a learning process, and every new element Anakin learned was a new element that Obi Wan saw in its infancy. One would imagine that lightsaber sparring against Anakin would be defending against raw endless aggression, not bad for defeating Grievous' murderous style.
Meanwhile, while Grievous had been trained by Dooku, in terms of actual combat experience he was benefitting from the atrophy of the Jedi Order due to centuries of domination. Jedi learned many times in their history that to believe they were the only manner of supersoldier or the only masters of melee combat was to seal their fate, a lesson learned too late against Grievous. Grievous' killing techniques focused on cybernetically-enhanced speed and agility that was beyond even many Force adept's precognitive ability combined with deadly, flawless multi-weapon combat and tricks such as fighting with his legs or splitting from two into four arms. An unpredictable, fast and deadly opponent made easy fare of the Jedi at the time who mostly trained in the diplomat style.
And, of course, it's not as if Grievous had been without defeat. Earlier in Episode III, he is defeated in ship combat, and before the events of the movie Mace clearly won enough of a fight to injure Grievous... well, grievously.
Obi Wan had seen an opponent like Grievous before in Darth Maul. Multiple lightsaber blades, acrobatics, rapid attacks, and so on did not surprise or faze him. Indeed, his training in Soresu was almost always a training against the phantom of Darth Maul in his mind. One can imagine how many thousands of times he replayed the death of his mentor. Soresu's defensive style was perfect against Grievous, who had very little new and innovative skills after he had exhausted his typical bag of tricks.
Further, Obi Wan's actual method of victory was not with the lightsaber but with the blaster. It was far from a cheap shot: It took advantage of Grievous' own positioning, mindset, vulnerabilities, weak points and tactics.
Even if one finds all of the above not quite compelling, the final and most important argument is the "zone". All athletes and competitive persons have a "zone". It is a place where everything crystallizes, where all the previous practice and engagements make sense and one operates simply off of pure intuition. In those brief moments, athletes can defeat opponents far above their normal skill level.
I believe Obi Wan had such a moment against Grievous. Despite being somewhat outclassed, straining the limits of his skills, he did not give up and held on, battling and holding his own until Grievous made a mistake.
So, when considering how battles should go, what power level your character is at and what he can do vis-a-vis others, remember all of these things. It is almost never about raw power but rather the application of one's existing toolkit intelligently.
